E52 - Vivian Van Gelder - D5 Seattle School Board Candidate

[00:00:03] Christie Robertson: Welcome to Rainy Day Recess, where we study and discuss Seattle Public Schools. This is our 2025 Seattle School Board candidate series. For each conversation, we start with a lightning round then ask two minute questions on the role of the school board in leadership and governance, and what is the real impact these candidates believe the school board can have on Seattle Public Schools.

Today we're releasing interviews with all six of the District 5 candidates. District 5 is roughly east Seattle. Earlier this week, we released our interviews with D2 and D4 school board candidates, and we'll cover D7 after the primary. Transcripts are available at rainydayrecess.org.

This episode is our interview with Vivian Van Gelder. We are including the interview here for the sake of completeness, but Vivian has let us know that she has stopped campaigning and is endorsing Janis White. 

Be sure to listen to our interviews with Allycea Weil, Janis White, Julissa Sanchez, Landon Labosky, and Vivian Song, which are also in your feed. We'll give you a quick preview of those interviews at the end of this episode.

[00:01:18] Interview start

[00:01:18] Christie Robertson: Hello everybody. I’m Christie Robertson.

[00:01:22] Cherylynne Crowther: I'm Cherylynne Crowther.

[00:01:23] Christie Robertson: And today we are here with Vivian Van Gelder. So, thanks for running for School Board, Vivian, and welcome to Rain Recess.

[00:01:32] Vivian Van Gelder: Thank you.

[00:01:35] Lightning Round

[00:01:35] Christie Robertson: Okay, we are going to start with a lightning round, and this section is meant to help listeners get to know you quickly. Let's start in. What are your name and pronouns?

[00:01:45] Vivian Van Gelder: I am Vivian Van Gelder, and my pronouns are she and her.

[00:01:49] Christie Robertson: How do you describe “what you do”?

[00:01:51] Vivian Van Gelder: I would describe what I do as education advocacy. I've been an education advocate for about the past decade. Sometimes paid, sometimes volunteer, but that's what I've been doing for 10 years.

[00:02:02] Christie Robertson: What director district are you running for, and what neighborhoods does it encompass?

[00:02:06] Vivian Van Gelder: I'm running for Director District 5, and that encompasses Capitol Hill, the international district, first Hill, Leschi, Madison, and the Central District roughly.

[00:02:18] Cherylynne Crowther: This is Cherylynne. Next we're going to do some background questions. Answer yes or no where possible, and a short explanation if something needs some context. 

Have you attended a school board meeting?

[00:02:29] Vivian Van Gelder: Yes. 

[00:02:30] Cherylynne Crowther: Have you testified at a board meeting?

[00:02:32] Vivian Van Gelder: Yes.

[00:02:33] Cherylynne Crowther: Have you testified in the state legislature

[00:02:35] Vivian Van Gelder: Yes.

[00:02:36] Cherylynne Crowther: And where did you go to school as a child?

[00:02:39] Vivian Van Gelder: I grew up in Sydney, Australia, and I attended public elementary school – that was K-6. And then I went to a private school on scholarship, so 7-12.

[00:02:48] Christie Robertson: And do you have or have you had kids in Seattle Public Schools?

[00:02:51] Vivian Van Gelder: Yes. 

[00:02:53] Christie Robertson: Outside of Seattle Public schools.

[00:02:55] Vivian Van Gelder: Yes.

[00:02:56] Christie Robertson: And have you worked in education?

[00:02:58] Vivian Van Gelder: Yes. 

[00:03:00] Christie Robertson: Have you been in a union?

[00:03:02] Vivian Van Gelder: Yes.

[00:03:03] Christie Robertson: Have you been on a board? 

[00:03:04] Vivian Van Gelder: Yes. 

[00:03:06] Christie Robertson: Have you ever worked with a large budget?

[00:03:08] Vivian Van Gelder: Relatively, yes. Never a billion dollars, but yes I have. 

[00:03:12] Christie Robertson: This is Cherylynne. Now for some quick takes. Who is an educational leader you admire? 

[00:03:18] Vivian Van Gelder: So I'm gonna cheat because there's a long list. But they're mostly folks who are curious, questioners, disruptors of the status quo. The educational status quo specifically. So Professor Richard Elmore, Karen Mapp, Alfie Kohn, Paul Freire, Lisa Delpit, Bettina Love, Christopher Emdin, Gloria Ladson-Billings. Folks like that.

[00:03:37] Cherylynne Crowther: Who's a school board director, you're looking forward to working with.

[00:03:40] Vivian Van Gelder: I am actually really looking forward to working with the student board directors. So I believe the incoming directors are Josephine Magelson, Isabelle Massoudi, and Director Sabi Yoon is returning. So I'm really looking forward to working with them.

[00:03:52] Cherylynne Crowther: And what's one education policy you'd strongly support?

[00:03:56] Vivian Van Gelder: So I wasn't sure if you meant specific to Seattle Public Schools or education policy in general. So again, I've picked a couple. 

Strongly support liberatory family engagement as conceived by Dr. Karen Mapp at Harvard University. 

Very committed to the concept of Universal Design for Learning as a way of organizing educational improvement for students. 

And then specific to SPS, I think that. We need to renew our commitment and I strongly support Policy 0030, which is ensuring racial and educational equity.

[00:04:26] Cherylynne Crowther: Now, do you see the school board as more of a trustee with a duty to the institution or as an elected representative, more accountable to voters?

[00:04:35] Vivian Van Gelder: So I think the fact that this question starts with "do you see" is part of the problem, right? The ambiguous status of the board's role is part of the problem that we're grappling with here. You know, if the answer to this were clear, it wouldn't be a question. 

And I think that to me, the answer is, it's both. Directors are trustees of the educational system, on behalf of the community. And that is the whole community, not just the community of folks who voted or even people who have voted for you. You have a duty to oversee the operation of the institution on behalf of the community. And in that duty, you are accountable. But you're not accountable to the specific constituencies that elected you, solely. You are accountable to the entire community.

[00:05:15] Cherylynne Crowther: What is one thing you'd change about the school board immediately?

[00:05:20] Vivian Van Gelder: I would change the election process. It's inaccessible to ordinary people who have day jobs and kids and don't have access to large sums of money. And I think that the political process as we have is not... it’s inappropriate for something that is such a sacred trust as the education of children.

[00:05:40] Christie Robertson: Last lightning round question is what's one lightning round question you would ask other candidates?

[00:05:45] Vivian Van Gelder: It's kind of related. I would ask, "do you believe that the skillset that makes a person an effective political campaigner is the same skillset that would make them an effective school board director?"

[00:05:55] Christie Robertson: And I think I can guess your answer to that.

[00:05:57] Vivian Van Gelder: In a word, no. The qualities that make you a good political campaigner are very different from the qualities that would make you a good school board director.

[00:06:06] Main interview questions

[00:06:06] Christie Robertson: Okay, so now we're gonna jump into the main questions. And these focus on institutional change and the role of the school board. You'll have up to two minutes to answer each one, but don't feel like you have to use all the time.

[00:06:19] Cherylynne Crowther: This is Cherylynne. What does a school board director do?

[00:06:23] Vivian Van Gelder: A school board director works with their fellow directors to set the mission, the vision, and the goals for the district that reflect the educational priority of the whole community. And this means that they really need to be in ongoing conversation with the whole community to make sure that their work continues to reflect community priorities.

Once they've done that, they delegate the implementation of that mission, that vision, those goals to sort of a CEO, and that's the superintendent, via the tool of policy making.

And then the next step in that cycle is that since board directors are ultimately responsible for what is executed on their behalf, they have to regularly monitor that what they've directed is what's actually happening. And they must hold the district, through its chief executive officer – the superintendent, accountable for that. Whether that means acknowledging that implementation is happening as they foresaw it, or whether things are not going according to plan.

[00:07:12] Christie Robertson: And what should the board focus on most when it comes to finding the next superintendent?

[00:07:18] Vivian Van Gelder: I believe that what we need is someone who understands that their primary duty is to students and their education. It would be helpful if we had someone who has a successful track record of working productively and collaboratively with a school board to improve student outcomes. Someone who has a successful track record with organizational change and restructuring, because that's something that I believe that we really need. Someone who has a demonstrated commitment to authentic family engagement and to educational equity. And someone who has demonstrated the ability to leverage productive relationships with external organizations on behalf of the school district or other organizations. And that can include other levels of government, CBOs, businesses, other organizations, or other bodies outside of the school district.

[00:08:05] Cherylynne Crowther: And this is Cherylynne. What do you think is the right balance between centralized control versus school-based decision making?

[00:08:13] Vivian Van Gelder: So I believe that it doesn't actually really matter where you come down, as long as you're not at either extreme. Extreme centralization is not helpful. Extreme decentralization is obviously unworkable. 

I think what really matters is connection versus disconnection. 

And so 30 years ago, our school district embarked on this experiment in radical decentralization. It did not go well. The way it unfolded ended up disconnecting schools from each other, and it made them compete with one another. It disconnected schools from their purpose of providing excellent education to every student. It disconnected the central administration from schools and from providing the support to schools and to educators so that they can serve kids. It disconnected folks in the community from one another and from our stated values, I believe. 

I think the way that that unfolded has conclusively proved to be a failed experiment. It's not necessarily that decentralization failed, but the way that it has been carried out in Seattle public schools has not succeeded. 

And I believe that we need a fundamental reset. We need to reconnect and renew our schools as the heart of a healthy democratic community. Because that's what public schools are for, right? And whether that happens through a more centralized system or a decentralized system is really up to our community and what's workable right now. But as long as we hold firm to being connected around that goal, I think that that's what really matters.

[00:09:30] Christie Robertson: And what should the board do if the district isn't meeting its goals for students?

[00:09:35] Vivian Van Gelder: So I think this is a question about accountability mechanisms. And I think that's the core of a lot of the problems in Seattle Public Schools. And other districts. 

And I think the shortcomings of the progress monitoring system that the board has set up right now are kind of a reflection of the lack of capacity inside our central office to actually engage in meaningful organizational change and restructuring. Which is what we desperately need. 

And I think that the current model that the school board is using to try to do that, which includes this progress monitoring, is not a bad idea in itself. It doesn't have to be that particular model they're using, but it needs to be some kind of model. But that kind of model can only work when the initial conditions for it exists. And that means that you need a functional structure, a central administration that can actually be responsive to what the board is asking of it. And we don't have that right now. That doesn't exist in our district. 

So moving to implementing a governance model that requires accountability when we don't have the conditions for accountability – it can't really work. Until we build those conditions. And to me, that's where the restructuring comes in. 

Right now, I think that the assumption is that by setting goals and guardrails, that itself kind of implies that that restructuring is needed. But it can't of itself make it happen. So it's kind of putting the cart before the horse. 

So I think that that work requires some intervention, possibly by other levels of government or outside organizations. Not to tell us how to restructure, but to make it clear that that's what's needed and to help hold that work. And then we can create those accountability structures going forward. And then those will work... or may work better.

I think that's the primary task for the school board right now is to foster that work.

[00:11:13] Cherylynne Crowther: What should the board do when the district isn't meeting community expectations?

[00:11:18] Vivian Van Gelder: So I would say this is very tightly related to the question just before this one. And I assume that the context for a question like this is around recent issues like school closures or enrollment procedures and processes, and the fact that there's a lot of community pushback or community concern that there wasn't really any clear way for it to be dealt with. 

And so I think the answer to this is also building those structures. I know that's unsatisfying because we need to build a plane while we're flying it. And the issue here is that yes, of course there should be some way to respond to community expectations that aren't being met, and we don't currently have that. The school board is not empowered to intervene directly in operations. We've had folks attempt to do that before, for very understandable reasons, and out of understandable frustrations, but it actually creates more chaos and more problems. 

And so the unsatisfying answer is that right now we don't have the structures that would allow us to predictably, sustainably, and consistently respond to the situations in which the district isn't meeting community expectations. And to me, that's the one of the most compelling reasons why we need a restructuring of our district in a way that would create structures that make this more of a uniform, predictable, and satisfactory process. Because that is the core of the school board's job, is to make sure that the way that our school system is working is reflective of the will of the community. And again, that's the whole community.

[00:12:45] Christie Robertson: So, Vivian, what's something that you want voters to take away about your approach to being a school board director?

[00:12:52] Vivian Van Gelder: I want folks to know that I hear and share their concerns about Seattle Public Schools. I think I bring an understanding of the root causes of our current predicaments and our dysfunction. And I have really long experience in trying to affect progress from outside the system. I'm really sincerely committed to seeing Seattle Public Schools restructured through a community process that puts students and their families at the center.

And I want folks to know that I'll prioritize relationships of trust with all stakeholders. Because without those relationships, we won't be able to move forward productively in addressing our districts' many problems. 

And so I would say that I'm committed to honesty, transparency, and accountability, because that's what I seek for Seattle Public Schools.

[00:13:35] Christie Robertson: Awesome. Thank you so much for being here today, Vivian Van Gelder. We really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts with us and with Seattle voters. And good luck with your campaign.

[00:13:48] Vivian Van Gelder: Thank you and thank you for these awesome and very thoughtful questions.

[00:13:52] Christie Robertson: Awesome. So thank you so much. 

[00:13:54] Preview of other D5 candidates

[00:13:55] Christie Robertson: Be sure to listen to our interviews with the other five D5 candidates. 

Allycea Weil: 

Allycea Weil: A lot of the time, people will look at a resume of a candidate and say, like, "Oh, do you have policy expertise?" I know how to read a report and write and craft things as well, even without that policy background. And honestly, the result of those with that background hasn't been very good. As a common person, as a gig worker, as someone who is from the population, it's just hard to see wealthy, resourced people trying to make an effective policy for us. Time and time again, it just seems to fail. And I think we know what we need. 

Janis White: We have a law in Washington that defines the responsibilities of school board directors. And as a lawyer, that's where I start. And that law is actually a lot broader than many people realize. School board directors write and adopt policies, hire and evaluate the superintendent, and approve the budget. And those three things are important to be sure, but I don't think they tell the whole story. Starting with the state law, it says that "the school board is accountable for the proper operation of the district". Not the superintendent – the school board. That doesn't mean that the school board should get involved in day-to-day management, but the school board must have processes in place to be able to know whether the district is operating as intended by its policies.

Christie Robertson: Julissa Sanchez:

Julissa Sanchez: I am shoulder to shoulder, elbow to elbow with my community. I'm not here for my agenda or my voice; I am a leader that likes to pass around the mic and the megaphone. My leading is definitely going to be with the voice and experiences of students, and most importantly underserved students. And right now, my approach is really going to be very protective of undocumented students, English learners, and young people who are in special education programs and really listen to, like, what do they need? Because they are the experts of their lives and of their solutions. Young people are so wise. And we as adults sometimes forget that. 

Christie Robertson: Landon Labosky:

Landon Labosky: The school board needs to be able to understand the complex issues happening at the district level and really dig into the policy issues happening with funding, dig into the operational issues that are happening with transportation and, like, insurance at schools, or keeping the lights on at schools. But then on the flip side, we need to be including parents and community members more. And you need to be able to take that information and communicate it effectively to reach a wide audience. 

Christie Robertson: And Vivian Song: 

Vivian Song: So there are five or six things that are listed in the state law: 

• Hire and evaluate the superintendent
• Set the vision for the district
• Adopt policies
• Oversee the budget, and 
• Serve as community representatives. 

I think what has been really missing in the last few years is the serving as community representatives. I think it's been really interesting that the district has been trying to push forward on really large changes and been met with community resistance. I think that is a reflection of the fact that the district hasn't brought community along in those decisions. 

[00:17:30] Christie Robertson: Ballots will be mailed Friday, July 18th, and primary ballots are due by Tuesday, August 5th. As always, stay curious, stay cozy, and thanks for listening to Rainy Day Recess.